The Ancient and Independent Order of Oddfellows (Adjustables, that is...)

four.cycle · Mar 4, 2025

DetailSeeker said:
I thought I saw Lugz mention that you were a DATAMP steward.

That would be @RTM -
My project is the list, which takes up most of my available free time.
I send the information in to the stewards and they eventually get around to posting it. Sometimes it takes a few years, but eventually it gets posted. (* this one only took four months.)

Another source you might check out is Stan's flickr.com page. Although it's a total mish-mash - just stuff randomly uploaded with no organization at all* - he's recently put up some German stuff we've both been puzzling over for some time - that "double-headed" number being one of them. (Apparently he's got some affinity for all things German - it's in his blood.)

(* kinda-sorta like MY flickr.com page - a veritable hodge-podge.)

If you're looking to become a datamp.org steward, I just happen to know the guy to contact.

If you've already figured out how to navigate both datamp.org and espace.net you could probably figure it out - I simply don't have the time available.

RTM · Mar 4, 2025

four.cycle said:
That would be @RTM -
My project is the list, which takes up most of my available free time.

Private Lugnutz said:
No. You may be thinking of @RTM.

And I only handle Auger and Brace stuff. So I just watch the wrench queries, and occasionally send them in myself

Eric Brown · Mar 4, 2025

four.cycle said:
That would be @RTM -
My project is the list, which takes up most of my available free time.
I send the information in to the stewards and they eventually get around to posting it. Sometimes it takes a few years, but eventually it gets posted. (* this one only took four months.)

Another source you might check out is Stan's flickr.com page. Although it's a total mish-mash - just stuff randomly uploaded with no organization at all* - he's recently put up some German stuff we've both been puzzling over for some time - that "double-headed" number being one of them. (Apparently he's got some affinity for all things German - it's in his blood.)

(* kinda-sorta like MY flickr.com page - a veritable hodge-podge.)

If you're looking to become a datamp.org steward, I just happen to know the guy to contact.
If you've already figured out how to navigate both datamp.org and espace.net you could probably figure it out - I simply don't have the time available.

Thank you for the Stans link. Just spent an hour enjoying it.

four.cycle · Mar 4, 2025

^ Stan's got a LOT of oddball widgets posted in those pages for which there were no patents issued - a lot of really obscure stuff.

d42jeep · Mar 5, 2025

I don’t think that I ever posted the Gellman Polly I found at a Tahoe sale last year. Several others have been posted on this thread

-Don

DetailSeeker · Mar 5, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
No. You may be thinking of @RTM.

Whoops!

four.cycle said:
If you're looking to become a datamp.org steward, I just happen to know the guy to contact.

I mean, I am seriously tempted, but I am also trying to be allowed back to work and get my email inbox down to under 600 emails, so I am probably not the best choice.

(Also, those photostreams are both fantastic.)

Private Lugnutz · Mar 5, 2025

Cross-linking a PowerGrip Tool Co (Patent 2,361,607) lever-type adjustable wrench that @Eric Brown posted here. Charles Daniels patent 2361607 / Oct 31, 1944. DATAMP page here. As far as I can tell from searching, FOAK on this thread and GJ.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 9, 2025

I was thrilled to find this c. 1888 Place Mfg Co slide-and-hinge type adjustable at the flea this morning. It's a FOAK on the thread based on recall and the Search function.

The action is very loose, but it works. The easiest way to adjust the capacity of the jaws on this one is to hold it upside down, fully disengaging the dynamic jaw from that rack of teeth on the back, and sliding it. But it will move in increments, tooth by tooth, too.

The most interesting feature is that brass piece keeping some tension on the static jaw. It's spring-loaded, plunging inside a recess in the dynamic jaw when the jaws are compressed.

DATAMP has been down since yesterday, so I will be curious to see what the page for this patent (391,957 / Oct 30, 1888) has to say. As usual, AA goofs it up just a little. In this case, they attribute it solely to J.A. Giles, and don't explain why Place Mfg Company, and later, Oswego Tool Company, made it, but 3/4ths of the rights were assigned to Chauncey Place, and Giles and Place were both from Oswego. EDIT: AA does acknowledge the assignment at the very end of the piece.

The markings are very hard to read. Transcribed: "THE PLACE M'F'G CO." and "OSWEGO, N.Y." forged into the shank, with "GILES PATENT. OCT. 30 '88" on the flip side.

3baygarage · Mar 9, 2025

Again, neat find Lugz. After finding a toothed adjusting wrench (here) and a pipe wrenh with plunger (Armstrong Bros.), you come up with one having both elements. :lol:

Picked up this 10” quick adjust recently.

Wright Wrench Mfg. Co., Canton Ohio

Two patents on the design and wrench marked with both dates:
March 5, 1904- Lewis and Ash patent 754,633
January 26, 1909 -James F. Wright 910,890

Note rivet construction holding moving jaw tooth wedge. Kind of neat. Spring spanning the back of mobile jaw.
Wrench is adjusted by pushing rear of jaw forward to disengage teeth, then sliding jaw or down.

3baygarage · Mar 9, 2025

From Datamp, American Machinist 1910 ad.

From Google Patents:

Private Lugnutz · Mar 9, 2025

3baygarage said:
After finding a toothed adjusting wrench (here) and a pipe wrenh with plunger (Armstrong Bros.), you come up with one having both elements

Yeah, quite the koinkydink.

3baygarage said:
Picked up this 10” quick adjust recently.

Wright Wrench Mfg. Co., Canton Ohio

Nice! FOAK on the thread. Clever. Kinda sorta reminds me of the Gordon.

four.cycle · Mar 9, 2025

@3baygarage -

Wright / Wright Wrench Mfg. Co., 926 S. Market St., Canton, OH / Wright Wrench and Forging Co / see also Ideal Wrench Co., Tacoma, WA / patent 754633 Mar 15 1904 Lewis Ash & Hiram B. Stewart & 910890 Jan 26 1909 & 949107 Feb 15 1910 James F. Wright & 999272 Aug 1 1911 Clinton W. Stover / http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers-p6.html#wright-wrench / see also Stover Wrench Co., Canton, OH /

Outlawmws · Mar 9, 2025

Is this the same Wright as the current Wright tools?

Private Lugnutz · Mar 9, 2025

Outlawmws said:
Is this the same Wright as the current Wright tools?

No. Wright Tool and Forge was founded a couple decades later by a different Wright and in a different place. As if two Ohio Wrights (Tool and Forge, and Aeronautical) wasn't bad enough!

3baygarage · Mar 9, 2025

Outlawmws said:
Is this the same Wright as the current Wright tools?

Not only is it not, but I also have the Wright patent pipe wrench earlier in this thread. Also different. :lol:

post #260

3baygarage · Mar 9, 2025

4c- here is that different shape Wright quick wrench like in those ads. It was posted in the GS thread a few years back. I haven't reunited the two yet. It's stashed away.
A bit smaller, maybe 8". Seen next to a 1/4" Craftsman breaker bar.

Also has the two patent dates.

four.cycle · Mar 10, 2025

Outlawmws said:
Is this the same Wright as the current Wright tools?

No. @3baygarage's contributions above are the Canton Ohio Wright:

@Outlawmws - I have no fewer than FIVE "Wright" entries in the list.

oops... I take that back... make that 6 or 7 "WRIGHT" variants, depending upon how you want to count them:
datamp.org shows patent 910890 having been produced by 3 different business entities - all "WRIGHT", of course.
Wright wrench patent 910890 entry at flickr.com

Alloy-Artifacts.org's entry for Wright addresses the confusing manner in which the patent dates are marked on the tool.

Wright / Wright Wrench Mfg. Co., 926 S. Market St., Canton, OH / Wright Wrench & Forging Co., Canton, OH / Wright Wrench & Forging Co., Tacoma, WA / see also Ideal Wrench Co., Tacoma, WA / patent 754633 Mar 15 1904 Lewis Ash & Hiram B. Stewart & 910890 Jan 26 1909 & 949107 Feb 15 1910 James F. Wright & 999272 Aug 1 1911 Clinton W. Stover / http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers-p6.html#wright-wrench / see also Stover Wrench Co., Canton, OH /

@3baygarage - thanks for that last one!

3baygarage · Mar 10, 2025

I totally forgot AA had an entry on that.

RTM · Mar 10, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
DATAMP has been down since yesterday, so I will be curious to see what the page for this patent (391,957 / Oct 30, 1888) has to say

Back up at about 1030 am my time.

US Patent: 391,957 - Pipe Wrench

US patent 391,957 Pipe Wrench was issued to Julian A. Giles of Oswego, NY. It was granted on 10/30/1888. Gripping teeth on the back side of the "loop" mesh with rack teeth on the back side of the shank. {br}Early 1890s hardware catalogs show this wrench

www.datamp.org

Gripping teeth on the back side of the "loop" mesh with rack teeth on the back side of the shank.

Early 1890s hardware catalogs show this wrench in 10", 14", 18", and 24" sizes, made of cast steel.

Giles later patented an "adjustable alligator wrench" type pipe wrench (pat. no. 408,479

Private Lugnutz · Mar 10, 2025

Thanks. I meant with respect to the assignments, which I see they captured correctly.

d42jeep · Apr 18, 2025

I found this smooth jaw wrench at a recent estate sale. Made in England. No other markings that I could find. I imagine it would be used in plumbing situations where damaging the nuts was to be avoided.

-Don

four.cycle · Apr 18, 2025

^^ ooo now that's different. That wrench was made by

Schmidt / Fr. Paul Schmidt, 20 Herrenstrasse, Suhl, Thuringia, Germany / "SUL" wrench / patent DE 342600 Oct 20 1921 and patent GB 169675 Dec 1 1921 / https://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?number=342600&typeCode=0&country=DE /
and
U.S. Wrench / U.S. Wrench Co., Philadelphia, PA / "Bohn Quickfit" wrench / patent 1481250 Jan 22 1924 George J. Bohn and Fred W. Werner /
and
Globemaster offered one they imported from Japan

but that's the first one I've seen from England

OAL is about... 7 or 8 inches?

Private Lugnutz · Apr 18, 2025

d42jeep said:
I found this smooth jaw wrench at a recent estate sale.

Referred to as a wedge-adjust type, due to the simple wedging/wedge-clasping action of that dynamic jaw, which is often spring-loaded.

Maybe a Macdowell Equipment Company "SLIK" wrench, made in Essex.

GB Patent: 650,363 - Improvements In or Relating to Adjustable Spanners or Wrenches

GB patent 650,363 Improvements In or Relating to Adjustable Spanners or Wrenches was issued to Charles Wilson Macdowell of Oban, Argyllshire U.K.. It was granted on 02/21/1951. The patent discusses adjustments of angles, etc. in previous sliding wedge adjustable wrenches to improve operation --...

datamp.org

If you're interested in seeing other examples and discussion on this type of adjustable here on this thread, here is a thread search on "Wedge" link...

Search results for query: wedge

www.garagejournal.com

And DATAMP has seventy (70) of them in the wedge-adjust category, from 1841 to 1954, linked here.

four.cycle said:
That wrench was made by

Well, that type of wrench, and yes, U.S. Wrench in Philly and Schmidt in Germany were two of many, many mfgrs. There were much earlier models. Right here on this thread we have a "Fitz-All" (reference to 1911 Fitzgerald patent) made by Standard Wrench and Tool Co. (Providence, R.I.), more commonly seen as a Rogers, Printz & Co. (Warren, PA). Twertsy has an interesting US knockoff on the thread, an Andrix (made in Adrian, Michigan). I suspect it's postwar, like most of the German SUL's that Stan attributes to the type's resurgence in the 50's.

I linked the entire string of wedge adjust types in DATAMP in my reply to Don above.

four.cycle said:
but that's the first one I've seen from England

See link I posted in my reply to Don.

As long as we're on the subject, I remain puzzled by the Suhl (placename in the province of Thuringia, Germany) = "SUL" logo connection, owning a "SUL" marked wedge-adjust also marked "HACOMER" and "SOLINGEN", which is in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

four.cycle · Apr 18, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
Right here on this thread we have a "Fitz-All" (reference to 1911 Fitzgerald patent) made by Standard Wrench and Tool Co. (Providence, R.I.), more commonly seen as a Rogers, Printz & Co. (Warren, PA). Twertsy has an interesting US knockoff on the thread, an Andrix (made in Adrian, Michigan). I suspect it's postwar, like most of the German SUL's that Stan attributes to the type's resurgence in the 50's.

Right.
I have a hard time remembering all of the variants of that design and I make the same dumb mistake every time one of those pops up here: I was searching "Fits All"when I put that post up a couple hours ago. The Long patent (890146) was produced by Long, Rogers Printz, and Standard.

Private Lugnutz said:
I remain puzzled by the Suhl (placename in the province of Thuringia, Germany) = "SUL" logo connection, owning a "SUL" marked wedge-adjust also marked "HACOMER" and "SOLINGEN", which is in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

No argument there for sure.
Some of the German patents are mind-benders because they were issued to the maker, not the inventor. But that patent that Stan found clearly shows Schmidt was located in Suhl. Did he move? Or was he living in Suhl and the wrench was actually produced in Solingen (250 miles distant)? Either way: the city of Suhl most certainly would have had the capacity for making a wrench.
(Pretty sure this was one of those deals that sat in Stan's "inbox" for a few years, but I don't keep any of those communications - it jams my email server. So by the time I finally hear back from him on some of these deals, I have completely forgotten all about it.)

My copy of that model is marked only "SUL".

Private Lugnutz said:
Maybe a Macdowell Equipment Company "SLIK" wrench, made in Essex.

I think you may well have nailed it there.
Macdowell just wasn't even on my radar screen. I have an entry in the list, but no photos or other documentation.

====

I have "Andrix" in the list, but no information. Did @twertsy post it somewhere?

====

This is the first time I have seen this post of Roy's. What do you suppose HAxxxER or SCxxMAN might have been?
Is it too far a stretch to think perhaps "HACOMER" and "SOLINGEN" ?

====

Private Lugnutz · Apr 18, 2025

four.cycle said:
Did @twertsy post it somewhere?

This thread.

four.cycle said:
====

This is the first time I have seen this post of Roy's. What do you suppose HAxxxER or SCxxMAN might have been?
Is it too far a stretch to think perhaps "HACOMER" and "SOLINGEN" ?

Keep reading. Or use my thread search link on "wedge" provided above to narrow the reading.

d42jeep · Apr 18, 2025

four.cycle said:
^^ ooo now that's different. That wrench was made by

Schmidt / Fr. Paul Schmidt, 20 Herrenstrasse, Suhl, Thuringia, Germany / "SUL" wrench / patent DE 342600 Oct 20 1921 and patent GB 169675 Dec 1 1921 / https://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?number=342600&typeCode=0&country=DE /
and
U.S. Wrench / U.S. Wrench Co., Philadelphia, PA / "Bohn Quickfit" wrench / patent 1481250 Jan 22 1924 George J. Bohn and Fred W. Werner /
and
Globemaster offered one they imported from Japan

but that's the first one I've seen from England

OAL is about... 7 or 8 inches?

Closer to 6”.

-Don

four.cycle · Apr 19, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
Keep reading. Or use my thread search link on "wedge" provided above to narrow the reading.

Read all of them. Not sure what exactly you're referring to other than a couple comments posted in 2020 in an exchange between you and @LesserSon regarding "Hacomer" (Hugo Hammesfahr & Co. GmbH, Solingen.):

Private Lugnutz said:
"... these were made by HACOMER in Solingen, Germany. HACOMER is still in business making primarily cutting tools. We still have not solved the "SUL" marking.

Both the German and British patent documents put Schmidt in Suhl in Thuringia - according to Google maps about 400 km from Solingen.
That does not exclude the possibility they may have been manufactured in Solingen as well, by a completely different outfit.*
Is there a CLEAN copy of the Hacomer-produced unit on which the text can be clearly read? Did I miss it?

(* and that would come as no surprise... as near as we can figure, Van Duijl's adjustable was made in at least two different countries!)

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2025

four.cycle said:
Not sure what exactly you're referring to...

Simply that there were several ensuing discussions about the "SUL" marking as well as the wrench marked "SUL" and "HACOMER SOLINGEN GERMANY" generously sent later to me by Roy Olson and you weren't replying to those.

four.cycle said:
Is there a CLEAN copy of the Hacomer-produced unit on which the text can be clearly read? Did I miss it?

Yes, and yes, unless we have different opinions of clean and clearly.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2025

four.cycle said:
according to Google maps about 400 km from Solingen.

Yes, in a completely different province, as I posted here...

Private Lugnutz said:
North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

four.cycle said:
That does not exclude the possibility they may have been manufactured in Solingen as well, by a completely different outfit.*

Right. And, unless Schmidt and Hacomer had some kind of 3rd party arrangement, it would mean that the "SUL" logo could mean something not as exclusive as DATAMP indicates to Schmidt, and completely unrelated to the coincidentally "sounding" placename of "Suhl", where Schmidt was located, such as an acronym, in Germam, for the type of wrench, perhaps, or something else. I never looked into it farther than those musings.

four.cycle · Apr 20, 2025

Okay... I think I see where you're going... (you and I communicate like me and my ex-wife sometimes, I think... which is not at all.)
So... where's the URL for an IMAGE of one where the "Hacomer" or "Solingen" stamps are at least partly legible? The images I saw in those posts are pretty sketchy.

I'd be more inclined to think "third party" (as with Van Duijl's adjustable) - same unit, same design, same patent, different country. Although in THIS case (Sul) we're talking different province, different city.

four.cycle · Apr 20, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
could mean something not as exclusive as DATAMP indicates to Schmidt

I can't pretend to get inside Stan's head, but THAT is the only information we had on that unit.
Again, I DO recall the "SUL" wrench was one of those deals - like MANY - that I emailed off to Stan and then a couple YEARS later he got back to me with the datamp.org URL number and a note.
Not sure "exclusive" is really applicable .... I think it's more a matter of "that's all we got".

Private Lugnutz · Apr 20, 2025

four.cycle said:
I think I see where you're going...

It would be more accurate to say I already went! Again, when you wrote...

four.cycle said:
What do you suppose HAxxxER or SCxxMAN might have been?
Is it too far a stretch to think perhaps "HACOMER" and "SOLINGEN" ?

...I was simply pointing out that you were starting at the beginning of a conversation we already had a long time ago on this thread and I was basically saying for you to catch up and your question would be answered. If you've read all the ensuing post and reached a different conclusion, that's fine, of course.

four.cycle said:
The images I saw in those posts are pretty sketchy.

The stamping in the middle of the marking is very shallow, deeper around the edges, but clearly reads "HACOMER" on the first line, "SO_ _ _ GEN" on the second line, and "GE_ _ANY" on the third. You're free to reach a different conclusion, of course. I'm not telling anyone else what to see. Granted, if we didn't know that Hacomer was located in Solingen, Germany, it might present a challenge. As such, it's pretty clear through derivation, in my opinion.

four.cycle · Apr 20, 2025

Okay.. I found that one... I'll forward that to Stan with some notes. I was thinking perhaps there was an image posted somewhere on which the characters could be more clearly read.
Not a matter at all of "coming to a different conclusion" - more a matter of looking for something more definitive (e.g., clearer image.)

I'll check ebay.de and see if I can find something... problem with that is the language barrier, of course, and they're not always listed using the same nomenclature. (They're not always listed as "schrubenschlussel".)

As with that goofy double-sided number out of Germany, I'm more inclined to think that these might possibly have been produced by more than one maker - or at least certainly in more than one facility. (In the case of the "SUL" that appears to obviously be the case.)
(I think Becker was just ONE of many who produced that style of "Mutterschlussel")(That one was a brain-twister because of the FONT on the patent document is simply impossible to read, AND there were changes in the German language that occurred in the 20th Century that make accurate translations challenging.)

You need to bear in mind I just don't catch everything here and retain it in memory.
I read all the posts in this thread (and most all the posts in the "Vintage" forum, for that matter) but it doesn't all stay at the forefront of my memory. So... it may well be more a case or "being reminded" than "catching up".

Private Lugnutz · Apr 20, 2025

Unless you replied at the time I wouldn't know if you read them and forgot or missed them (during one of your hiatuses, perhaps) and it wouldn't matter, 4.c. I don't have those kinds of expectations. Again, "Keep reading..." is just a common refrain to let guys replying to an earlier part of a discussion to know there's more discussion to come and it's retreading old ground until they do. No criticism implied.

Maybe one day we'll figure the "SUL" thing out. I'm not losing sleep on it, though.

four.cycle · Apr 20, 2025

Private Lugnutz said:
Maybe one day we'll figure the "SUL" thing out. I'm not losing sleep on it, though.

Kind of looks to me like we've "figured out" that the unit was manufactured in at least two locations, unless I've missed something here.
My line of questioning above was only in the hope of finding a clearer image of the "Hacomer" and "Solingen" stamps, which would irrefutably establish that as a manufacturing location as well (not that the specimen we currently have an image of doesn't already do that.)

Private Lugnutz · Apr 20, 2025

four.cycle said:
Kind of looks to me like we've "figured out" that the unit was manufactured in at least two locations,

That's been my position ever since I've had the HACOMER SOLINGEN. I was referring to the meaning of the "SUL" term. Is it a brand? An acronym? etc.

four.cycle · Apr 20, 2025

AH! Okay.... got it now. (finally.)

So..... possibly something OTHER THAN it simply looking very similar to "Suhl".

Private Lugnutz · Apr 20, 2025

four.cycle said:
So..... possibly something OTHER THAN it simply looking very similar to "Suhl".

Yes. Not casting any aspersions on Stan, or Ron Geesin, for example, whose 1916 book The Adjustable Spanner: History, Origins, and Development to 1970 is even more explicit about the connection than DATAMP is, but I'd be skeptical of the all-capital letters in "SUL" being related to Suhl anyway, which could be just a weird coincidence, and I am even more skeptical in the possession of a "SUL" wrench that is also marked Solingen. I could be wrong. But seeing SUL as a purportedly variant spelling of Suhl and Solingen on the same wrench doesn't make sense.

four.cycle · Apr 21, 2025

oOOOOOOO....
"and I am even more skeptical in the possession of a "SUL" wrench that is also marked Solingen"
so you're saying that YOU own a wrench stamped "SUL" which is also marked "Solingen"?
how did I miss that? :headscrat

That definitely tosses a different light on it, doesn't it?
Up to this moment, I thought the ONLY example of any specimen possibly marked "Solingen" was the one Roy posted in 2021, the markings on which are barely legible - I just shot those off to Stan about an hour ago.

Geesin's illustration does not match the doctored-up photo image of the "SLIK" wrench shown in the 1963 Popular Mechanics ad posted HERE. Don's example (posted above - the one marked only "MADE IN ENGLAND" - looks more like the one in the ad, but again: the photo in the ad was doctored up with an airbrush for publication.

The question I posed to Stan was what I think you are thinking: "SUL" may well have been a BRAND and the similarity to "Suhl" is coincidental.

====

RE: "Not casting any aspersions on Stan, or Ron Geesin" - I think that we all are doing the best we can with the information we are able to find.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 21, 2025

four.cycle said:
so you're saying that YOU own a wrench stamped "SUL" which is also marked "Solingen"?

Yes. I found a 6-incher marked only "SUL" and "GERMANY" and Roy sent me his 8-incher, marked "SUL" and "HACOMER SOLINGEN GERMANY" on the flip side. I've had them both since 2020. I've said it multiple times and posted photos of them together here.

Attached below are additional photos of both wrenches together.

The Ancient and Independent Order of Oddfellows (Adjustables, that is...)

Well-known member

Well-known member

ALLIANCE MEMBER

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments