jar944
Well-known member
Things like tooling, machine selection, capabilities, usage, etc?
Anyone interested in a shaper (aka, spindle moulder, Toupie, Tischfräse) conversation?
- Thread starter jar944
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gamescastspencer
Well-known member
I’d be interested in that.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
I know a shaper is more than just a big table mounted router, but that is the end of my knowledge, so Yes, I'd be interested in learning more about the shaper.
karoc
Well-known member
I have two which I want to setup for cabinet doors. Love learn from someone who knows.
purplezr2
Well-known member
Interested, I have a couple, working toward a collection like yours.
Have an older delta Rs-15 unit.
Thoughts on back fences? I found it to work well, with 3D printed "setup blocks" makes using it a breeze.
Have an older delta Rs-15 unit.
Thoughts on back fences? I found it to work well, with 3D printed "setup blocks" makes using it a breeze.
Renegade1LI
Well-known member
I love when I get to use the shaper, unfortunately not often enough. I have had a few,griz 1026, an old cm, 2hp delta, jet and now a pm26. I know some don't agree but I use it with router bits allot with no issues, way better than a router table. Built a custom fence with dust collection and added a power feeder, highly recommend using a power feeder. In fact using the power feeder on ts and jointer really adds safety and performance.
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Renegade1LI
Well-known member
I liked the little jet 22, I used it mostly as a router table, sorry I sold it.
Nice. I guess there is some interest. Feel free to post questions if you have any.
Starting with machine selection
Simply a bigger machine is better, (not hp) it's more about weight of the machine and size of the quill. There are many different variations of shapers from little bench top delta LD (really a precursor to router/router tables all the way to a 4000lb Whitney.
Wadkin made a shaper the size of a delta HD that was similarly equipped with a 2hp motor but was 3x as heavy as the delta with a substantially more robust quill.
That said, there are thousands of cabinet shops out there running some flavor of either a Delta hd or a powermatic 25/26/27 which are all smaller machines but capable of doing fine work within the limits of the design.
Knowing what the machine is capable of, will drive the tooling considerations. In essence the smaller lighter machines were designed around smaller diameter cutters and are happiest if you stick to that.
I will also say that a power feeder is almost a necessity. Having a shaper without one makes for a incomplete package.
I'll post on tooling selection next
Starting with machine selection
Simply a bigger machine is better, (not hp) it's more about weight of the machine and size of the quill. There are many different variations of shapers from little bench top delta LD (really a precursor to router/router tables all the way to a 4000lb Whitney.
Wadkin made a shaper the size of a delta HD that was similarly equipped with a 2hp motor but was 3x as heavy as the delta with a substantially more robust quill.
That said, there are thousands of cabinet shops out there running some flavor of either a Delta hd or a powermatic 25/26/27 which are all smaller machines but capable of doing fine work within the limits of the design.
Knowing what the machine is capable of, will drive the tooling considerations. In essence the smaller lighter machines were designed around smaller diameter cutters and are happiest if you stick to that.
I will also say that a power feeder is almost a necessity. Having a shaper without one makes for a incomplete package.
I'll post on tooling selection next
Two is better than one for cabinets, the only thing better than two shapers is three shapers...
Seriously though having two is nice as you can have one set up for coping and the other setup for sticking. Do you have a coping sled as well? Even something as simple as a rectangle of mdf with some toggle clamps works well.
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
I used to grind suicide knives for cabinet shops, still have some collars and knives around here somewhere?
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
Both, lock edge are not really any safer IF you know how to set up the head. I guess I will catch flack for that but, I have no issue running smooth collars and have several knives up to 2".
gamescastspencer
Well-known member
Touching on the subject of spindle and bearing sizes, here is a comparison photo from the late Bob Vaughan:
With that though, I have two Delta HD shapers myself, and for the most part cover my needs. One big [potential] downside of big shapers, is those large bearings are not cheap if they need to be replaced can easily cost more than one might pay for the whole machine.
With that though, I have two Delta HD shapers myself, and for the most part cover my needs. One big [potential] downside of big shapers, is those large bearings are not cheap if they need to be replaced can easily cost more than one might pay for the whole machine.
Touching on the subject of spindle and bearing sizes, here is a comparison photo from the late Bob Vaughan:
With that though, I have two Delta HD shapers myself, and for the most part cover my needs. One big [potential] downside of big shapers, is those large bearings are not cheap if they need to be replaced can easily cost more than one might pay for the whole machine.
The nice thing about newer shapers is the cheaper disposable bearings compared to the old high precision oil bath bearings. 6011s or 6211s are common and not horribly priced. My medium shaper was a stacked pair of 6008s.
Expanding a bit more on the quill
Delta hd
Grizzly 86xx
511 (imported by many companies)
Casolin f90
Invicta ti-14 (tilting)
Picture incoming.
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Cutter selection..
I use my shaper(s) for a variety of tasks.. For the typical cabinet door work (sticking, coping) as well as rebates, panel raising, groove cutting, making moulding, tenoning... the list goes on and on. I rarely use my router table (I actually got rid of the table years ago because i never used it.) everything is better on a shaper.
As for cutters I have a lot, but I likely use a plane rebate head the most, After that it's a toss up, but the rebate head, groover and a insert knife head (pin or corrugated) would be thr next most used head.
Some of the heads
Commodity knives for 40mm euro block heads
Adjustable groover setup for notching drawers
Groove (another groover setup) for solid shelf edges.
One of the benefits of a shaper is the ability to run custom ground knives. Obviously there are other ways to make profiles, but its hard to beat a shaper (unless you have a moulder.) You can get custom router bits, but those are rather expensive for what they are.
Here are a set of cope and stick knives and a knife for a door/window casing profile.
Coping sled for thr profiles above
To be continued
I use my shaper(s) for a variety of tasks.. For the typical cabinet door work (sticking, coping) as well as rebates, panel raising, groove cutting, making moulding, tenoning... the list goes on and on. I rarely use my router table (I actually got rid of the table years ago because i never used it.) everything is better on a shaper.
As for cutters I have a lot, but I likely use a plane rebate head the most, After that it's a toss up, but the rebate head, groover and a insert knife head (pin or corrugated) would be thr next most used head.
Some of the heads
Commodity knives for 40mm euro block heads
Adjustable groover setup for notching drawers
Groove (another groover setup) for solid shelf edges.
One of the benefits of a shaper is the ability to run custom ground knives. Obviously there are other ways to make profiles, but its hard to beat a shaper (unless you have a moulder.) You can get custom router bits, but those are rather expensive for what they are.
Here are a set of cope and stick knives and a knife for a door/window casing profile.
Coping sled for thr profiles above
To be continued
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Beelzeboss
Well-known member
I thought you meant this sort of shaper
I wish I still had mine (the one in the vid), I just don't have enough space.
I wish I still had mine (the one in the vid), I just don't have enough space.
Considering this in the woodworking sub forum...
Beelzeboss
Well-known member
Ahhh far out, so it is! I think I followed a direct link from the main page on the right without realising what forum it was in...
carry on!
Continued from above
Rebate head
And some of the possibilities
This moulding was made using only that head and a tilting spindle
Door sizing (with a sled or sliding table)
The cut quality off a double shear head in fantastic
Just simple rebates
Cabinet panel rebates
Tenons (using two rebate heads)
Rebate head
And some of the possibilities
This moulding was made using only that head and a tilting spindle
Door sizing (with a sled or sliding table)
The cut quality off a double shear head in fantastic
Just simple rebates
Cabinet panel rebates
Tenons (using two rebate heads)
Some shaper content videos, the one from Roy Sutton is probably the most comprehensive.
And a few covering shapers in the small shop (focused on whitehill tooling)
Tenoning (with whitehill tooling)
More introduction to shaping (brand agnostic)
Roundovers
Rebates
https://youtu.be/ZPL9lQ-ekVk?si=YK4pLTBrOa_UaAOh
Ring fence
https://youtu.be/qoLcr_u1QPQ?si=02ZHbLrml7j-KYwp
Euro block (40mm pin knife insert system)
https://youtu.be/v6YWN7QHL84?si=qnbuzs9NA3ENyexR
And a few covering shapers in the small shop (focused on whitehill tooling)
Tenoning (with whitehill tooling)
More introduction to shaping (brand agnostic)
Roundovers
Rebates
https://youtu.be/ZPL9lQ-ekVk?si=YK4pLTBrOa_UaAOh
Ring fence
https://youtu.be/qoLcr_u1QPQ?si=02ZHbLrml7j-KYwp
Euro block (40mm pin knife insert system)
https://youtu.be/v6YWN7QHL84?si=qnbuzs9NA3ENyexR
karoc
Well-known member
Myself, I have few window sashes that muntins needs to be replace on couple sashes. They’re not real wide, maybe 1 1/4 if that much. I still need to purchase cutters for simple profile for 3/4 spindle. What I’m wondering how would you setup for this narrow piece? I do have sled for doing ends but that’s it. I also have router table but I like to put shaper to use. I don’t know correct terminology. Tks for any links to YouTube etc
Off the top of my head there are three ways that I'd employ to make that cut.
Assuming you don't have a powerfeed I'm left with two.
For the bars you can make a reverse profile jog and hand feed them, as outlined here:
Pics from that write up
Alternatively you can set up a couple of guide boards (full length feather boards) on top and opposite the fence. With enough of a gap between to get a narrow push stick through.
It's easier if the cut is not full profile but will work even if it is.
Similar concept here but replace the feeder with a feather board
karoc
Well-known member
One more question, this is from novice so don’t laugh to loud. Why do shapers have forward/reverse?
Thanks for those pics explaining, no power feeder yet
Thanks for those pics explaining, no power feeder yet
One more question, this is from novice so don’t laugh to loud. Why do shapers have forward/reverse?
Thanks for those pics explaining, no power feeder yet
So you can run parts from either side.
As an example
Here are clockwise and counter clockwise coping setups, which allow you to cope into the profile (on a already profiled part) on both ends.
I had these on side by side shapers
when coping you just pick up the sled and move from one shaper to the next cutting left to right then right to left.
On something like these commodity knives you may need to use only a portion of either side of the knife and the only way to use both (assuming the head needs to be either under of over only) is to reverse the head and the direction. You end up feeding left to right almost as much as right to left.
karoc
Well-known member
Commodity knives and head, what would you suggest a rookie purchase? I think for me it be cheaper to purchase head and knives vs individual profile heads. Open for suggestions brand etc.
Powerfeeders: Good grief are they expensive, how would person go about deciding on size, HP? Grizzly seems offer different sizes
Powerfeeders: Good grief are they expensive, how would person go about deciding on size, HP? Grizzly seems offer different sizes
karoc
Well-known member
I have couple of Rockwell shapers with 3/4 spindle. Simpler to this one. Wanted to get them setup for cope/stick. I have maybe 4 profile cutters that carbide. Couple basic panel cutters, I’ve never gave a thought about insert cutters and head. Due to never seen one in action, just didn’t understand how they were held in place till seeing video.
I am building my own small house with old wood frame windows so I’ll need to make muntins and maybe whole sash. Just few random questions.
I am building my own small house with old wood frame windows so I’ll need to make muntins and maybe whole sash. Just few random questions.
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Those are identical to he delta HD, so smaller heads are better 3-4" diameter maximum. Amana makes a 68mm euroblock that is about the ideal size for those (3/4 bore).
You can get away with the 1/4hp feeder but the 1/2" hp have a bit more rigidity. I have a pile of 1hp feeders and the most I've paid was $125 for one (used)
There is a old delta publication "how to get the most out of your shaper" download available on vintagemachinery.org that has sash construction covered using your shaper and the little 3 wing delta cutters.
