Machinists level.
- Thread starter wmec627
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Firebrick43
Well-known member
How much did it go for? I have the Starrett equivalent, a 199Z, obtained in nearly perfect condition for a few hundred at an estate auction as well. Very much surprised when i looked up the cost of a new one at $1200
I paid 150$ for it,original asking price was 300.
I'm happy with it.
gagecalman
Well-known member
I believe 0.0005"/12" if I remember correctly. Very sensitive. I calibrated lots of them years ago.
jayemm
Well-known member
I find it fascinating that something like a level can be designed and made to be so accurate. This reminds me that where I used to work, a company would come in and check calibration on our inspection tools/equipment. A guy was checking flatness on a smaller granite surface plate with an electronic level. I believe the plate averaged out (multiple readings at different locations) at 6 arc-seconds over a 6" span. Calculating that out it's pretty close to level.
whateg01
Well-known member
Accurate is pretty easy. Just need a curved top surface and the ability to adjust. Precise is, or should be harder. I've had an import in my Amazon cart for a few weeks now. I'm not really all that concerned with exactly how precise it is as long as it can be adjusted.
RTM
Well-known member
Heck, the 98 is tough enough on normal humans. I have a 12" and a 4 or 6" at home.
I kept one 6" on my desk at work, and asked a few Jr staffers to adjust the desk for me. They went batshit crazy.
whateg01
Well-known member
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I was a mechanic on CNC machines for years with tight =/- 13 micron (0.0005") tolerances on the parts so the machines had to be significantly better than that. We had some 98's around in the shop, they were akin to a carpenters level to many there as their accuracy was 10 times less than the 199
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KnurledNut
Well-known member
whateg01
Well-known member
Looks pretty, but does it work?When you have access to CNC you make your own level.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I have seen some toolmaker made precision levels over the years. Glass Pipettes filled with light spindle oil, closed off, and a screw to slightly flex the tube the desired amount installed on a heavy hand scraped base. I thought about it as well but the estate auction eliminated that project off my listWhen you have access to CNC you make your own level.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I have always been curious about the machine shops aboard ships. I know many navy ships have pretty well equipped machine shops, at least the LPD that I crossed the pacific on did. But at the time I wasn't as aware of how to use a machine level like I do now. Do they put the machines on a substantial sub base on land and install base/machine as a unit? Or is it just done in place in dry dock?
whateg01
Well-known member
Shipboard machinery is the reason I don't bother to level anything in my shop. As long as the machine parts are square and flat, it'll make parts. Bed twist isn't a concern on my 10ee.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
A precision Level is just a convenient way and most portable method to ensure coplanar ways. While the design of a 10 EE with its included base is a unique case, most lathes I have worked that have issues with cutting parts without taper have the twist thru the bed. Its amazing how even massive machines ways can twist with surprisingly little pressure.
If I had a dollar for all the times I have seen machinist fight taper and try to adjust tailstocks, sometimes in crazy ways, and it was solved by simply releveling the machine to take the twist out I could possible take the family out to Mc Donald's for dinner nowadays
Hi,
This^^^
As stated, those were made for scraping/machine reconditioning, to my mind?
WOW!When you have access to CNC you make your own level.
Yes it looks pretty and all but looks & feel are one thing.
But two of the most important questions about it are:
1.) How accurate is the Level itself?....what are it's tolerance measurements?
2.) What or how did you compare it too or base it's calibration for it's complete accuracy?.....basically what was used to base it's accuracy against?
P.S......"also how accurate is the original item used" to base your newly made level for all it's measurements, against?
Was it NIST Certified?
Levels are self checking. If the bubble is in the same position when the level is rotated 180* then it is good. That cnc level is a yardstick compared to the OP level being a micrometer. Now if you need to get into resolution then that is a whole different discussion. I used to use a 98 to get things close and then use a 199 or equivalent to get it level.WOW!
Yes it looks pretty and all but looks & feel are one thing.
But two of the most important questions about it are:
1.) How accurate is the Level itself?....what are it's tolerance measurements?
2.) What or how did you compare it too or base it's calibration for it's complete accuracy?.....basically what was used to base it's accuracy against?
P.S......"also how accurate is the original item used" to base your newly made level for all it's measurements, against?
Was it NIST Certified?
lg
lg
whateg01
Well-known member
I think you mean precision. Resolution =/= precision =/= accuracy
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Resolution, precision, and accuracy are not interchangeable.
Nice one OP, iirc (0.0005" in 10") is a 10 second level, yours is a bit more sensitive and more than enough to set a machine up and check for wear/twist etc. Used as a comparator you can check point to point for global flatness, across surfaces for twist/coplaner and riding components as a quick and dirty first check for wear. A word of caution if using one level, you have be sure that whatever you're attempting to measure isn't flopping about as you move components, that includes the level itself.
Have fun
YesIHaveAHammer
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- Jun 1, 2025
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So how accurate are these levels?
My Stabilia levels claim +/-0.5mm per metre (about 1/64" per yard).
However, that relies on me eyballing that a 10.6mm wide bubble is centred in a 12.2mm gap between two lines. That's at room temperature; the bubble is sized so that even when it expands in temperatures well below freezing, it's still within the lines.
My Stabilia levels claim +/-0.5mm per metre (about 1/64" per yard).
However, that relies on me eyballing that a 10.6mm wide bubble is centred in a 12.2mm gap between two lines. That's at room temperature; the bubble is sized so that even when it expands in temperatures well below freezing, it's still within the lines.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
I believe most machinists levels claim .005” per foot.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
The one the OP bought and the 199Z are .0005" per 12" for the divisions but can see it being off even less that that. Also the bubble is absolutely huge and easy to read.
Just half of the bubble is visible
The smaller levels like the starrett 98 are .005" per foot
cmandp
Well-known member
When i think machinist level i think of 0.0005" per foot.
Cruzan80
Well-known member
I have also seen the Kinex levels, which are .02mm/m, or about. 002in/ft. More than a Starett 98, not quite a 199Z.
For the average lathe that needs leveling, id imagine a two collar cutting test and/or indicating from the saddle to a test bar in the headstock socket would be the goto. The machine would be new and checked in all ways from factory, its known good, so set machine in place, bolt down, tweak level till test bar indicates within spec, final up with two collar and face cut tests.
For anyone wondering, theres normally not much need for lathes etc to be 'level' with earth. When 'checking level' with regards to a machine tool, folks are usually referring to looking for any meaningful twist in the main slideways, precision bubble levels are ideal for this.
All is rubber lol
All is rubber lol
Ultradog MN
Well-known member
I did 4 years as a Navy machinist.
Level wasn't even in our vocabulary.
Go over to the hobby machinist forum. Some of those guys will get their undies in a wad trying to get an old South Bend level. I think its kind of a fools errand.
I have a big ol lathe. When I brought it in my garage I used a carpenter's level on it and called it good.
The garage is built on a typical 4" concrete slab.
With our frozen MN winters the slab moves due to frost heave. So do I level my lathe in the summer? Or in the winter?
What about spring and fall?
Or every time I make a penny ante part?
I bought a couple of Starrett precision levels at an auction several years ago. A 4" and an 8".
They're still in their original boxes.
I opened the boxes to look at them when I got them then I stashed them in a drawer and had to go find them and dig them out for this photo op.
Ive never used them and should just sell them.
But I like tools and I like other guys who like tools. Even if like me, they never use them.
Level wasn't even in our vocabulary.
Go over to the hobby machinist forum. Some of those guys will get their undies in a wad trying to get an old South Bend level. I think its kind of a fools errand.
I have a big ol lathe. When I brought it in my garage I used a carpenter's level on it and called it good.
The garage is built on a typical 4" concrete slab.
With our frozen MN winters the slab moves due to frost heave. So do I level my lathe in the summer? Or in the winter?
What about spring and fall?
Or every time I make a penny ante part?
I bought a couple of Starrett precision levels at an auction several years ago. A 4" and an 8".
They're still in their original boxes.
I opened the boxes to look at them when I got them then I stashed them in a drawer and had to go find them and dig them out for this photo op.
Ive never used them and should just sell them.
But I like tools and I like other guys who like tools. Even if like me, they never use them.
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MushCreek
Well-known member
I have the exact same P&W level as the OP. Nothing rolls off the table of my old Bridgeport mill.
PopcornSutton
Well-known member
When I check my lathe, I mark the bed where the level sits the the position of the level, across the bed, on each end. I don't look for perfect level, but look to get each end the same. For a twist in the bed. I don't care if the carriage is running up hill or down, but I want it in the same plane. I also check with turning test bars.
Its all relative and needs based eh. Turning to tenths over any distance for a living? Repair/setup machine tools for living? Have an interest in machine geometry/reconditioning? Precision levels are high on the list of needs.
The must have tool to get the 70yo beater out in the shed with a 30 thou hole near the chuck cutting something like right? Not so much.
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Ultradog MN
Well-known member
I don't disagree with you.
It's a pretty diverse group with different interests and accuracy needs here.
So I don't doubt some here might have contracts with NASA, Boeing, Medtronics or SpaceX where working in tenths or even microns in their one, two or three car garages is an everyday thing.
I wasn't speaking to those types tho as they know better than me.
My guess is that most of us on this primarily hobby forum who might have an older lathe or mill are just making parts for their motorcycle, tractor, Skidoo, muscle car or kid's minibike and think files and emory cloth are their friends. It was those guys I was speaking to.