Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT Woody's Works Garage

Denwood · Sep 27, 2014

Woody's Works Garage - rebirth!

Edit: This thread was originally just a ceiling raise project. Thanks to this forum (damn you all!) the project has, well, morphed into a six month and counting project

I was inspired by a build found here on the journal, so am returning the favor for anyone looking to follow a similar path.

I have a rather pedestrian garage, at 16 x 24 which came with our house. Other than converting over to natural gas heat, I've done nothing to it. After reading some of the MaxJax lift posts I decided to order one, which is enroute. My problem, like many with a smaller shop, is the 8ft ceiling. The roof is stick framed, with the required truss ties in place. With high snow loads here, cutting these truss ties is a guaranteed collapsed roof (as they keep the walls from bulging out under load), and raising them to collar tie configurations will not pass code. Scissor trusses would have only got me to a useable 8ft six, unless I entirely replaced the roof. This might have been ok if I only lifted cars, but I have a 90 Westfalia that needs to work in the space. The shop is used for automotive work, wood work, and has also been a paint booth (auto) from time to time. It's in desperate need of a major clean up and re-organization to maximize usable space.

Enter the load bearing beam ridge design. After a few visits to Unitized manufacturing (local truss design/manufacture guys), we came up with a simple in place retrofit.

The roof is 5/12 slope. In case it helps, I've also included the beam specs.

September 2014 at the beginning of the renovation:

October 2014:

A sneak peak 5 months forward showing the shop at February 2015.

November 2016:

And now, back to the beginning with beam data..

Here's the micro-lam delivered:

The mess of improperly installed/ventilated insulation has to go, spray foam to come:

About eight hours later, we got to this. I was able to do everything except the top beam by myself. For the top beam, my brother, a few beer and 2 hours did the trick. Although glue was not called for in the spec, I used PL Premium construction adhesive as well as the 6d ardox nails and laminated the beams in place. This made it a lot easier to lift them. I now have 10'2" of clearance across a "window" of 6ft x 16ft. This should allow approx. 40" of lift on the MaxJax for the Westfalia.

GuyllFyre · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

If I'm seeing this right, you did a single longer double engineered beam at the peak and then used two single width engineered beams for the front and rear stringers?

That looks really nice!
Seems close to the same size as my garage.

Denwood · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Yes, exactly. I cut out about 16 ft of truss ties away, and replaced with a ridge beam. The load from the ridge beam is carried to the walls by two stringers, constructed the same as the ridge beam. I could have gone the full 24ft, however I wanted storage at both ends. At 24 ft span, my guess is the beams would be larger as well. As it is, the final result are beams 12"x3 1/2" for both the ridge and stringers.

Because the wall sheating is plywood, and wiring is in place, I'll add a few 2x6's under each end (at the walls) to add support rather than adding a few studs inside the walls. The engineering detail shows the end cuts on the stringers as they are cut to sit on the wall top plate.

My neighbor (fireman who moonlights in carpentry) came over this afternoon and told me what happened when he helped a gentleman cut away truss ties (not fully aware of the effect) with a snow load present. The walls immediately bulged out requiring cable/winches and several days of work to repair the damage. The truss ties normally are under tension with a snow load present. Raising truss ties up as "collar ties" still leaves outward loads on your walls..and they're not designed to resist this.

Rock knocker · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Looks good

APEowner · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Nice solution and nice execution.

theoldwizard1 · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

APEowner said:
Nice solution and nice execution.

Hard to say much more ! :thumbup:

Any issues swinging the stringers into place ?

With so much "meat" cut out for the "heel", did you consider just using 4 glu-lams that were just "HD" height ?

volleyball · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

That is one way of doing it. I had hoped you had added 2 -3' to the walls to make it taller.
One item on my to do list.

TommyK · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

IMO you need to install clip angles to mechanically attach the rafters to the original ridge.

I would install hurricane clips on the other end as well if you don't already have them.

Denwood · Sep 27, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Rock, Ape, thanks

Wizard, getting the stringers up was easier than I thought it would be. I laminated them in place, so could lift each "lam" up separately. Basically I raised up one end into place, and laid the stringer flat. On the raised end I used a ratchet strap to create a safety loop (so it could not fall). With the stringer laid down flat, I could push one end over the wall into the eave as I raised the other end, making it really easy to get the stringer into position, and flip it vertical. The cut out detail on the stringer ends (to match the roof pitch) was spec'd by the engineer, so apparently is no problem with the load. I didn't want to drop/notch the stringer beams down below 8 ft, so this method works well.

Tommy, you're 100% correct. I'll be using the cut-out truss tie material to effect collar ties to both brace the ridge beam, and tie it to the existing stringers. Hurricane straps don't exist here (Thunder Bay, Ontario) as there is zero risk of a hurricane, and to date, no recorded tornadoes. That said, the local code requirement of toe-nailing stringers to the top plate seems very short-sighted, particularly as weather patterns change. I'll be adding straps at the walls, as well as the ridge beam just for peace of mind. In exchange for zero hurricane/tornado risk, we get -35C in the winter

I need to decide if I'll just completely spray foam/seal the roof, or add baffles before sprayfoam so the eaves can vent to a small vented "attic" feature formed by the added collar ties up top. Any thoughts? Sprayfoam can apparently cut racking movement in a wall structure by anywhere from 75 to 200 %. I've been very impressed by how it stiffens structure we've had foamed previously, so the new roof should be far stronger and stiffer than previous.

Denwood · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Bracing today, spray foam tomorrow...

hoho98925 · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Denwood, good for you! So glad you took the correct approach and consulted truss companies/ suppliers that had engineering software to help design your project. Too many members on here have not done that and have modified there trusses anyway. There would be nothing worse in my opinion then waking up one morning to find the roof structure of my building collapsed on top of all my prize possessions, simply because I thought I knew what I was doing, or had listened to bad advice from the internet. Roof structures are nothing to be toyed with, they distribute loads in all directions. Once again great job, and I look forward to any updates on your project!!!! :beer:

Zeke · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Holy megapixel photogman!

Denwood said:
Yes, exactly. I cut out about 16 ft of truss ties away, and replaced with a ridge beam. The load from the ridge beam is carried to the walls by two stringers, constructed the same as the ridge beam. I could have gone the full 24ft, however I wanted storage at both ends. At 24 ft span, my guess is the beams would be larger as well. As it is, the final result are beams 12"x3 1/2" for both the ridge and stringers.

Because the wall sheating is plywood, and wiring is in place, I'll add a few 2x6's under each end (at the walls) to add support rather than adding a few studs inside the walls. The engineering detail shows the end cuts on the stringers as they are cut to sit on the wall top plate.

My neighbor (fireman who moonlights in carpentry) came over this afternoon and told me what happened when he helped a gentleman cut away truss ties (not fully aware of the effect) with a snow load present. The walls immediately bulged out requiring cable/winches and several days of work to repair the damage. The truss ties normally are under tension with a snow load present. Raising truss ties up as "collar ties" still leaves outward loads on your walls..and they're not designed to resist this.

I guess your fireman buddy moonlights but not as a competent framer.

bdkw1 · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Are you going to add some studs under the new stringers to carry he extra load now placed in that section of wall?

Edit: Never mind, read the rest of your second post.......

theoldwizard1 · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

TommyK said:
IMO you need to install clip angles to mechanically attach the rafters to the original ridge.

Why ? They are effectively "resting" on the glulam. Toe nail into the glulam would be more than adequate.

I would install hurricane clips on the other end as well if you don't already have them.

Hurricane straps of some kind are always a good idea. However, I would not loose any sleep over not having them.

theoldwizard1 · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Denwood said:
Because the wall sheating is plywood, and wiring is in place, I'll add a few 2x6's under each end (at the walls) to add support rather than adding a few studs inside the walls.

Good ! Stick a piece of PT between the floor and your 2x6s. Make it a tight fit (requiring a BFH to drive it into place) so that it actual does pick up some of the load.

Denwood said:
Rock, Ape, thanks Wizard, ... the cut out detail on the stringer ends (to match the roof pitch) was spec'd by the engineer, so apparently is no problem with the load.

I'll bet the smallest glulam they make is a 12" !

Denwood · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Hoho, thanks for the kind words. Truss companies basically do the engineering for free, and I'm lazy

We did another project (Cinevate's new home) which involved actually cutting away and restructuring 50 ft trusses (8 ft ceiling) to achieve 11 ft ceilings in our studio. This was spec'd by our architect and structural engineer, essentially gluing/nailing plywood both sides of each truss in the new profile along with internal webbing. This was a surprise to me as I was pretty sure we'd have to redo the entire roof in that section. Hopefully this thread helps out another guy looking up and scratching his head

Zeke, sorry about the photo size..I usually post them a bit bigger, relying on forum software to scale. Apparently garagejournal doesn't scale external image links. I've scaled them down

My neighbor (the fireman) I think is more into cabinetry than carpentry. When he told me the story I was surprised too...just ironic that someone living 100 ft from here actually has first hand experience with the danger in cutting truss ties with snow load...

Wiz, thanks for your comments. I did indeed add some straps, and some bracing to make sure everything behaves under load. I have a very nice sledge hammer indeed for these jobs. What's PT? I'm assuming a waterproof membrane? I was just going to use pressure treated lumber so moisture/rot at the floor never compromise the structure.

Each roof stringer is sitting directly over a stud in the wall, so right now there is just one stud under the beam ends at the walls. When I'm done there will be effectively three studs glued with PL premium and nailed as well. Screws are not recommended as they loose sheer/compression as soon as the end snaps...so 3" 6d ardox(twist) nails are used.

I had given up hope of a higher ceiling without replacing the roof, but I saw a scissor truss garage with end storage here at garagejournal.com which got me thinking. To be honest, on my first visit to Unitized (the truss/beam guys) they had no suggestions really for me other than a new roof with scissor trusses. On the second visit, I pitched (pun intended) the ridge beam concept and they agreed it would work...then ran the numbers for me. Beams were here the next day. the MaxJax hoist should be here in a few days.

Here's a bit more bracing detail with straps. I also added 2x6 blocking and hurricane straps where the beam/stringers meet the outside walls...spray foam next.

Modern Jess · Sep 28, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Kick ***!

BRIANBB · Sep 29, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Those 2x6's holding up each end of the ridge beam need something more than nails. Maybe run two or three carriage bolts thru. Otherwise looking good.

Denwood · Sep 29, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Brian, the 2x6s are just "strapping" a support 4x4 underneath. We could have used plywood plates, but figured PL premium + screw/nail and heavier material would be more rigid. I should have grabbed a photo before we strapped it up.

dubber · Sep 29, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Awesome Garage mod! Sweet westy as well. My pops has one out in Victoria, as do the rest of the peeps out there hahaha.

TommyK · Sep 29, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

theoldwizard1 said:
Why ? They are effectively "resting" on the glulam. Toe nail into the glulam would be more than adequate.

Hurricane straps of some kind are always a good idea. However, I would not loose any sleep over not having them.

The short answer is that at least where I live the code requires it.

Denwood · Sep 29, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Thanks Dub

Tommy, I've gone ahead and strapped the ridge beam to original ridge, as well as added hurricane straps to each roof rafter at the wall. The straps are far more effective than toe-nailing.

Spray foam Thursday is scheduled, at a cost of $1600 for R18. I priced out DIY kits at $2100, so I'm quite happy with the quote. Will post a few pics.

Denwood · Oct 1, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Pics are self explanatory. I added some bracing over the last few days as time permitted. Spray foam is all done

Just have to add two 2x6s below each stringer to transfer load to the concrete footing/floor, and we're ready for phase 2 of the renovation. Some great ideas on this forum! Drywall on the ceiling will need to be done. I'll be doing a modified French cleat wall and cabinets, floor epoxy and hoist install next.

Denwood · Oct 8, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

The MaxJax arrived yesterday, as well as epoxy anchors. Stay tuned.

madison069 · Oct 8, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Nice work so far!

Denwood · Oct 8, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Thanks Mad. Very slow going with a young family and business..but this forum has given me some great ideas. A massive clean up is underway. Roll up door to replace the hangar doors comes next, along with epoxy floor and key clamp /pipe storage and bench system.

TONE · Oct 9, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

That's awesome. Smart choice made here. Great job and enjoy it all.

Denwood · Oct 9, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Thanks Tone

To add to the project, I've made the decision to go with a roll up door from smartgarage.ca It's a single piece roll up door that looks to offer some serious advantages in terms of real R value with the insulation option. I'll be doing some vids/reviews once it gets here of the install and performance. Price is actually very good...$2500 which includes automated operation, R27 insulation option, remotes and seals.

This door will replace the (leaky!) internally opening hangar doors..and free up 64 square feet of wall space to boot. I wanted to be able to open the garage door with a car on the hoist in summer.

Honestly my back lane has a bit of a garage culture already, so part of the door decision ensures that when work is going on (weather permitting), I can have the door open. This in turn is part of the man-bonding that goes on back there. I have to admit a few of the neighborhood dogs/owners stop as well for a chat and some socialization. I know many of the dogs by name, and strangely, not all of the owners. ha.

I'm very inspired by the cleanliness of the "the far east garage" and also the deliberation that has gone into garages like Dubber's Double:, the minimalism inherent in the Far East Garage, and finally the inspiration for my reno, Xander's build. Thanks guys

Xander · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Nice work!!! Spray foam and all, I love it. Knowing I helped inspire you to do this puts a smile on my face. Thanks!

Xander

c6matt · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Wow, very clean rework of the structure... bravo..

sean Buick 76 · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Nice work and great documentation!

Gentle_Ben · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

This is a great project, I love the vaulted ceiling. Keep up the good work!

runt262 · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

That opens that garage up a lot! I bet you're feeling pretty good now that you can put your vehicles the air. Great idea, and it looks like it was well done

Denwood · Oct 10, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Xand, no, thank you! Your thread was my first ever discovery of garagejournal!

Ben, Sean, Matt, thanks for the kind words. Runt, I've been doing the jackstand thing forever, including an audi performance engine transplant into my Westfalia. The little hoist will be simply awesome. I'm on a big corrosion control kick, so doing a ton of research etc. Being able to lift a vehicle to properly inject cavity wax etc. will be a monstrous improvement over the "**** in the face, creeper" experience. Ha.

Here's the 1990 Westfalia clip I shot a few weeks back...note the blistering 0-60 run at 14.4 seconds...9 seconds faster than the 90hp stock wbx. It's shot with a GoPro and our Morpheus stabilizer

Is there a way to embed a video on garagejournal?

captainkarl · Oct 11, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Nice Vanagon! Any reason why you put an accusump? High g cornering?

Denwood · Oct 11, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Ha. High G cornering indeed. Karl, when I first did the audi engine conversion I wasn't thrilled with the time it took for oil pressure to build after winter storage. This summer I replaced the oil pump with a "blueprinted" new one and was able to drop a few grades down to 5w30 while maintaining over 1 BAR/1000 rpm hot. The new setup reaches pressure faster too. The Accusump is set up with a switch on the dash so I only energize it before starting. This gives 3-4 BAR of oil pressure before the engine turns over, even after several winter months in storage. The unit pressurizes itself as the van runs, and only discharges when the dash switch is on.

Today, was a bit frustrating. I've taken what we'll call the "before" picture as the shop is a royal mess. Hard to believe this shop housed the Westfalia engine conversion, and a few paint jobs, including the van and my autocross car, an 84 Scirocco. The pile on the floor is the MaxJax lift, which will not be seeing use now for at least a month due to concrete cure requirements on new slabs. The good news is drywall in 2 weeks, along with the insulated roll up door which was ordered on Friday from smartgarage.ca

My slab is too thin (3" or so) to be safe, so I'll need to pour a new pad for the lift. The dirt beside the hole is not good sign.

Denwood · Oct 12, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

For reference, here's what I figure a safe retrofit slab solution will look like. This is a resource from Mohawk lifts. I'm referencing the spec for a retrofit slab based on their A7, 7000lb asymmetric lift.

I'll take this down a notch, so reinforced 3' x 12' slab, 12" thick with a 6" key under the existing slab as pictured (so no need for epoxying anchor dowels every 18".)

Reference pdf document from Mohawk:
http://www.mohawklifts.com/consumer/library/Slab_Req-Reco_2-2010.pdf

Denwood · Oct 18, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Slab Demo Day!

I rented a Hilte diamond saw and Bosch demolition hammer from Home Depot. I'd consider these essential to doing this job...still a three to four hour task with the right tools. Here's a few notes/pics for reference.

A dust mask and ear protection are necessary:

My shop vac (make sure you use a filter bag inside the vac!) duct taped to the Hilte dust port made for near zero dust. The concrete dust would likely damage the vac motor, hence the optional bag installed..this is normally used for drywall dust. The diamond saw will not cut rebar very well, so I set the depth to a few inches only for my cuts. I used my 4" angle grinder to cut mesh reinforcing as I progressed along with the hammer.

The concrete at one end is very thin!

Ready to to go, with ABS pipe in position. I'll use the ABS "conduit" to pass the hydraulic line from the left side under the slab. The hydraulic pump/reservoir unit will be mounted on the right column to keep lines out of the way.

Denwood · Oct 20, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

A little extra rebar reinforcement...2 yards 4000 psi concrete tomorrow.

Algoma56 · Oct 21, 2014

Re: 8ft to 10ft ceiling in 8 hours, $650 ??

Great work upgrading and retrofitting your garage to fit your needs.
My youngest boy is attending school in your fair city right now.

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