Sub panel questions-New thread as to not hijack existing thread

Codyboy · May 4, 2026

Codyboy said:
Just for clarification , the rule to have separate neutral and grounds was 2008?

the code change in 2008 was only for subpanels in DETACHED buildings.

Codyboy said:
When I wired my house (2005) I did not separate them.
My breaker panel could be considered a sub panel I guess but not sure.
There is a main breaker only in the garage, it then feeds to a closet in the house where the breaker panel is.

It is a subpanel because of the main breaker ahead of it.

Codyboy said:
Sch 40 pvc between the two panels with 4 wire , two hots , neutral and ground wire.
Neutral and ground are not separated .
And if it matters this is all the same structure.

This is totally incorrect. bonded neutral has NEVER been allowed in a subpanel in the same structure as the main. the code change we are discussing above is for DETACHED buildings.

they need to be separated as you have created a potential for shock.

and whats crazy is you ran a 4-wire feed but then left the neutral bonded.

post some pics of your subpanel with the cover removed. and do it on a new thread so you dont hijack this one.

Codyboy · May 4, 2026

How is it a shock hazard?

wyliesdiesels · May 4, 2026

Codyboy said:
How is it a shock hazard?

if you lose the neutral connection between the main and subpanel, you have alternate pathways neutral current can flow on such as metal plumbing, gas lines, phone lines, cable lines etc

I have seen it happen.

This is why code never allowed bonded neutrals in subs in same structure as main panel.

Why did you run 4-wire with a bonded neutral? thats another code violation cause now you have paralleled neutrals, 1 being undersized and isnt allowed for conductors under 1/0. Since you were doing a bonded neutral, only 3-wire was required even though it was a code violation. whoever did this clearly didnt know what they were doing. multiple code violations.

you need 2 ground bars, remove neutral bond screw (green), and move grounds over to new bars including feeder ground wire.

yatg · May 4, 2026

Also looks like bunches of ground wires on the right side are twisted into a rope and stuck under a single ground screw.
Usually 2 or 3 max allowed per screw depending on the panel.
Hard to tell under the other wires and cables.
Aside from being wrong, its really annoying.

And what's that gray Cat5 cable doing in there?

wyliesdiesels · May 4, 2026

yatg said:
Also looks like bunches of ground wires on the right side are twisted into a rope and stuck under a single ground screw.
Usually 2 or 3 max allowed per screw depending on the panel.
Hard to tell under the other wires and cables.
Aside from being wrong, its really annoying.

And what's that gray Cat5 cable doing in there?

bingo

larger NM-b cables have solid grounds until you get into the really big NM-b (#4 and larger) but the largest breaker is 40a.

so someone screwed up on the grounds as well

good catch on the coms wire... not allowed

also noticed all the NM is going thru what appears to be conduit adapters. also not allowed

what is that large black conductor that goes behind the feeders and goes down the left side of the panel?

wyliesdiesels · May 4, 2026

to summarize violations

1. bonded neutral
2. paralleled neutrals (smaller conductor needs to go to ground bar)
3. grounds on neutral bars
4. too many grounds under 1 lug (2-3 max depending on brand)
5. comm wire in panel
6. no clamps on NM

EDIT: 7. & 8. white tape on neutral missing and green tape on EGC missing

larry4406 · May 4, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
to summarize violations

1. bonded neutral
2. paralleled neutrals
3. grounds on neutral bars
4. too many grounds under 1 lug (2-3 max depending on brand)
5. comm wire in panel
6. no clamps on NM

I’m trying to learn and hope I’m up to speed but maybe I’ve missed something.

What is #6 - no clamps on NM?

What is the small black wire at the top with the red tape?

Shouldn’t the neutral be taped white?

wyliesdiesels · May 4, 2026

larry4406 said:
I’m trying to learn and hope I’m up to speed but maybe I’ve missed something.

What is #6 - no clamps on NM?

All the NM is coming thru a single conduit adapter on the bottom and right side. it should be coming thru listed NM clamps. it needs to be secured to the panel not just ran loose into the panel thru a hole and incorrect fitting

larry4406 said:
What is the small black wire at the top with the red tape?

an EGC that shouldve been taped green and ran to a ground bar

larry4406 said:
Shouldn’t the neutral be taped white?

another code violation i missed, although a minor one

Model A Fan · May 4, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
All the NM is coming thru a single conduit adapter on the bottom and right side. it should be coming thru listed NM clamps. it needs to be secured to the panel not just ran loose into the panel thru a hole and incorrect fitting

an EGC that shouldve been taped green and ran to a ground bar

another code violation i missed, although a minor one

Is that NM not just THHN with NM sheathing for labeling what the wires are feeding? It looks like THHN that has had the sheathing from NM slipped over it for identification purposes (rooms/circuits written in sharpie on it).

Also, (I'm asking out of curiosity, not an argument) is there a reason you cannot run NM through conduit without it being clamped? You can run THHN through conduit without needing to clamp it; so why not NM as well?

Innovate1 · May 4, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
All the NM is coming thru a single conduit adapter on the bottom and right side. it should be coming thru listed NM clamps. it needs to be secured to the panel not just ran loose into the panel thru a hole and incorrect fitting

Pretty common here to have panel in basement and run a couple or large PVC conduits up to the floor joist space with the majority of circuits run through them. At least that's how it was about 20 years ago. Maybe things have changed since then...

wyliesdiesels · May 4, 2026

Model A Fan said:
Is that NM not just THHN with NM sheathing for labeling what the wires are feeding? It looks like THHN that has had the sheathing from NM slipped over it for identification purposes (rooms/circuits written in sharpie on it).

who runs THHN in a house unless they are in shitcago? the added expense of conduit isnt worth it.

also if thats all THHN then conduit fill has most likely been violated....

Model A Fan said:
Also, (I'm asking out of curiosity, not an argument) is there a reason you cannot run NM through conduit without it being clamped? You can run THHN through conduit without needing to clamp it; so why not NM as well?

the issue isnt running it thru conduit, the issue is with it not being clamped to the panel.

NostraThpmas · May 4, 2026

#9: White wire on top left 40A 2 pole should be redesignated.

Codyboy · May 5, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
if you lose the neutral connection between the main and subpanel, you have alternate pathways neutral current can flow on such as metal plumbing, gas lines, phone lines, cable lines etc

I can see that sort of , but a main panel that lost the neutral lug in the panel or in the meter can, or the weatherhead or the pole would be the same thing and the panel itself would be energized with neutral current on it.
I have seen that many times. Some of the neutral current will be absorbed into the ground via the ground rod. But also a person touching the panel could be shocked too because that current is going to go somewhere.

wyliesdiesels said:
I have seen it happen.

This is why code never allowed bonded neutrals in subs in same structure as main panel.

I can't understand how having main panel between the meter and subpanel could make a difference electrically. Other than having more termination points along the way it is still electrically continuous all the way back to the transformer.

Codyboy · May 5, 2026

yatg said:
Also looks like bunches of ground wires on the right side are twisted into a rope and stuck under a single ground screw.

I thought that was allowed with grounds and not allowed for neutrals. None of my neutrals are bundled up and only 1 per screw.

yatg said:
Usually 2 or 3 max allowed per screw depending on the panel.

So is it 2 or 3 ? I think on mine there are 4 and another that has 5.
I don't have a code book (2005 installed). Where does it say that in the code?

yatg said:
Hard to tell under the other wires and cables.
Aside from being wrong, its really annoying.

And what's that gray Cat5 cable doing in there?

Yes I know that shouldn't be there. It goes to a camera for my gate. That was a whole different thread.

yatg said:

Codyboy · May 5, 2026

Innovate1 said:
Pretty common here to have panel in basement and run a couple or large PVC conduits up to the floor joist space with the majority of circuits run through them. At least that's how it was about 20 years ago. Maybe things have changed since then...

Very common around here too.

Codyboy · May 5, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
bingo

larger NM-b cables have solid grounds until you get into the really big NM-b (#4 and larger) but the largest breaker is 40a.

so someone screwed up on the grounds as well

good catch on the coms wire... not allowed

also noticed all the NM is going thru what appears to be conduit adapters. also not allowed

It's a chase ******.

wyliesdiesels said:
what is that large black conductor that goes behind the feeders and goes down the left side of the panel?

Something else that I know shouldn't be in there.

yatg · May 5, 2026

Codyboy said:
I thought that was allowed with grounds and not allowed for neutrals. None of my neutrals are bundled up and only 1 per screw.

So is it 2 or 3 ? I think on mine there are 4 and another that has 5.
I don't have a code book (2005 installed). Where does it say that in the code?

One neutral per hole is correct.

Its not in the code, you have to read the equipment label.
This is from a SQD multi-hole ground bar.
Allows one #14 to #4, per hole.
Allows two #14 or #12 copper, or two #12 or #10 alum.
Does not allow mixing copper and alum.
Does not allow 3 or more of anything.
Does not allow two #10 or larger copper, or two #8 or larger alum.
Does not allow a #2 or larger with strands clipped off to make it fit in the hole.

wyliesdiesels · May 5, 2026

Codyboy said:
I can see that sort of , but a main panel that lost the neutral lug in the panel or in the meter can, or the weatherhead or the pole would be the same thing and the panel itself would be energized with neutral current on it.

you cant get shocked by a meter main with a lost neutral. on a sub with a bonded neutral that is lost, a person touching the panel or stove or anything else that has a bonded neutral in it and say a faucet water line etc has created an alternate pathway for that neutral current to flow back to the main service panel. Its the reason why GFCIs were created. to prevent an alternate pathway from providing a potential for shock

Codyboy said:
I have seen that many times. Some of the neutral current will be absorbed into the ground via the ground rod.

incorrect. the earth does not absorb current. electricity returns to its source, in this case the transformer. the current going into the earth is returning to the transformer via the ground rod at the pole and the ground bond wire running up the pole to the center tap on the transformer.

Codyboy said:
But also a person touching the panel could be shocked too because that current is going to go somewhere.

that is impossible because the main service panel is bonded w/ ground rod which makes the earth and panel at the same potential. this is basic electric system 101 stuff that a lineman should know. how can you be shocked when the panel is at the same potential as the earth? thats just the reason for putting ground rods in. makes the panel at the same potential as the earth. a person cant be shocked if everything is at the same potential. again youre posting misinformation.

Codyboy said:
I can't understand how having main panel between the meter and subpanel could make a difference electrically. Other than having more termination points along the way it is still electrically continuous all the way back to the transformer.

Because of alternate pathways that the neutral current can flow on in a house. remember, all the plumbing in a house is bonded. its the reason for the requirement for 4-wire feeders. saying its electrically continuous doesnt mean anything. you need to understand how power can flow on pathways it should not flow on because of the bonding. Ive seen people get shocked touching a washer and plumbing because of wiring issues.

wyliesdiesels · May 5, 2026

Codyboy said:
I thought that was allowed with grounds and not allowed for neutrals. None of my neutrals are bundled up and only 1 per screw.

depends on panel brand. but there isnt any brand that would allow that many grounds under 1 lug. how can you possibly torque it properly to spec?

Codyboy said:
So is it 2 or 3 ? I think on mine there are 4 and another that has 5.

we cant tell you that. it depends on the panel brand. you need to look at the label on the panel.

Codyboy said:
I don't have a code book (2005 installed). Where does it say that in the code?

code tells you to follow the listing of the panel. its not gonna tell you specifically how many grounds per hole because that depends on the brand. you have to follow the listing of the panel label.

wyliesdiesels · May 5, 2026

Codyboy said:
It's a chase ******.

which doesnt secure the NM to the panel. a chase ****** isnt listed for that purpose.

Codyboy said:
Something else that I know shouldn't be in there.

ok but what is it?

wyliesdiesels · May 5, 2026

Codyboy said:
Yes I know that shouldn't be there. It goes to a camera for my gate. That was a whole different thread.

you can have all kinds of problems with that. it should be removed.

Codyboy · May 6, 2026

Codyboy said:
I have seen that many times. Some of the neutral current will be absorbed into the ground via the ground rod.

incorrect. the earth does not absorb current. electricity returns to its source, in this case the transformer. the current going into the earth is returning to the transformer via the ground rod at the pole and the ground bond wire running up the pole to the center tap on the transformer.

Yeah , poor choice of words. What I meant was that current will be directed into the earth and try its best to make it back to the transformer.

"that is impossible because the main service panel is bonded w/ ground rod which makes the earth and panel at the same potential."
But it will never be at zero potential in an open neutral condition even with 10 ground rods.
There will still be step potential until the neutral is restored.

Another situation I can see in having a separate ground / floating neutral in a sub panel is if the ground wire between panels is open/cut/ bad connection etc...
How is the sub panel grounded now?
This scenario is with the sub panel within the same structure as the main panel and the only ground rod is at that main panel.

Codyboy · May 6, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
which doesnt secure the NM to the panel. a chase ****** isnt listed for that purpose.

How is that any different than THHN in a conduit that enters the panel? Nothing to secure it there.

wyliesdiesels said:
ok but what is it?

It's a coax cable . It will be removed.

wyliesdiesels · May 6, 2026

Codyboy said:
But it will never be at zero potential in an open neutral condition even with 10 ground rods.
There will still be step potential until the neutral is restored.

that defies basic electrical 101. bonding is literally to make the objects at the same potential

if the panel is connected to a ground rod, it is at the same potential as the earth. there is no step potential regardless of the neutral condition because of the bond to earth. an open neutral doesnt somehow magically make the enclosure of the panel no longer at the same potential as the earth. the open neutral doesnt remove the bond to earth. all the open neutral does is create a voltage imbalance between the 2 ungrounded conductors.

wyliesdiesels · May 6, 2026

Codyboy said:
Another situation I can see in having a separate ground / floating neutral in a sub panel is if the ground wire between panels is open/cut/ bad connection etc...
How is the sub panel grounded now?
This scenario is with the sub panel within the same structure as the main panel and the only ground rod is at that main panel.

current doesnt flow on grounds under normal conditions so having an open ground just means you can have a potential for a grounded object to become energized since the breaker would not be able to clear the fault.

that is different than having neutral current on a grounded object because of a compromised neutral. neutrals carry current under normal operation grounds do not.... apples to oranges

also ground rods have absolutely nothing to do with equipment grounding conductors. another apples to oranges comparison you are making. i suggest you read the FAQ sticky about this topic

wyliesdiesels · May 6, 2026

Codyboy said:
How is that any different than THHN in a conduit that enters the panel? Nothing to secure it there.

flawed comparison. code requires NM to be secured to boxes and within 8" of a box. loose conductors are not NM. different cable type.

mm08822 · May 8, 2026

yatg said:
One neutral per hole is correct.

Its not in the code, you have to read the equipment label.
This is from a SQD multi-hole ground bar.
Allows one #14 to #4, per hole.
Allows two #14 or #12 copper, or two #12 or #10 alum.
Does not allow mixing copper and alum.
Does not allow 3 or more of anything.
Does not allow two #10 or larger copper, or two #8 or larger alum.
Does not allow a #2 or larger with strands clipped off to make it fit in the hole.

Masons improvise their own way.

JK...just my scratch coat brush!

yatg · May 8, 2026

mm08822 said:
Masons improvise their own way.

JK...just my scratch coat brush!

if you land each strand under a screw its good to go.

Codyboy · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:
But it will never be at zero potential in an open neutral condition even with 10 ground rods.
There will still be step potential until the neutral is restored.

Wylie
"that defies basic electrical 101. bonding is literally to make the objects at the same potential

if the panel is connected to a ground rod, it is at the same potential as the earth. there is no step potential regardless of the neutral condition because of the bond to earth. an open neutral doesnt somehow magically make the enclosure of the panel no longer at the same potential as the earth. the open neutral doesnt remove the bond to earth. all the open neutral does is create a voltage imbalance between the 2 ungrounded conductors"

It absolutely will not be at the same potential. Somewhat, maybe , yes.
If it were at THE SAME then there would be no need for a neutral back to the source in the first place.
As I said it will help and possibly it will reduce the amount of shock received but it WILL NOT prevent it.

Next time you run across this open neutral situation, put a amp clamp on the ground rod.
Then with a vom put one lead on the panel or the ground rod and the other lead in the dirt aways from it.
You will read voltage.

I have seen this literally thousands of times.

People getting. Shocked in the shower, on the kitchen faucet....etc

A ground rod will in no way prevent that.
As gas been said thousands of times on this forum,
a ground rod is for lightning and nothing else.

A ground rod with an open neutral WILL NOT even trip a main breaker.
It just sees it as a load a will just pour power into the ground.

PCustoms · May 9, 2026

Not using the quote feature makes this almost impossible to follow...

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:
If it were at THE SAME then there would be no need for a neutral back to the source in the first place.

this is incorrect. why? because the earth is a poor conductor. the earth will never be able to carry more than a few amps if even that, of neutral current.

but neutral current being able to travel back to the transformer on the pole thru the earth has absolutely nothing to do with a panel being at the same potential as the earth with grounding electrodes being connected to the panel. you are mixing up topics here.

The claim you have made here is completely incorrect.

I do motorla R56 grounding and bonding for communication sites. everything is at the same potential to prevent lightning and other surges from frying equipment. I deal with this stuff for a living...

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:
People getting. Shocked in the shower, on the kitchen faucet....etc

completely mixing up topics again.

you can have energized plumbing with an intact service neutral. ive seen it myself and had to fix it. how? plumbing was not bonded in the house. an ungrounded conductor energized the gas line and water lines (which were connected to gas but not to the panel). tenants were getting shocked. no current flow on ground rods. why? because the fault was not in the service drop.

again youre mixing up topics here

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:
As gas been said thousands of times on this forum,
a ground rod is for lightning and nothing else.

this is incorrect as well

a grounding electrodes function is to

limits potential to earth
bonds neutral and panel to earth
shunts lightning to earth
shunts high voltage primary current when primary lines contact secondary lines... there is more but you get the idea

you left off many things on the list of functions a grounding electrode accomplishes....

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:

all your diagram shows is that youve created PARALLEL pathways. this doesnt mean the panel is not at the same potential as the earth. you can have neutral current flowing on multiple pathways. which is what you did when you bonded neutral in your sub and terminated the ground wire on the neutral bar which is a big code violation.

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

PCustoms said:
Not using the quote feature makes this almost impossible to follow...

agreed. someone doesnt know how to use the forum tools "reply" and "quote" and its getting old. someone also doesnt understand basic concepts that have been in use for decades and stuff i use for communication site bonding and grounding.... about done beating a dead horse :deadhorse

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

Codyboy said:
A ground rod with an open neutral WILL NOT even trip a main breaker.
It just sees it as a load a will just pour power into the ground.

what? another statement and logic flow that makes no sense whatsoever.

breakers cant detect open neutrals regardless of ground rods being involved. how does your statement make any sense at all? are you claiming that a circuit with an open neutral can be detected by a breaker and thus the breaker will trip?

again, what kind of logic are you even trying to convey here?

Not to mention an open neutral on the service drop would be on the line side of the main breaker. breakers dont care about what is going on on the line side of said breaker. So now youre inferring that a main breaker trips because of faults on the line side. again your statement makes no sense whatsoever and your claims defy basic electrical101.

but lets delve into your BS claims with some facts.

Would a breaker care about an open neutral? why or why not?

breakers trip for 1 or more of 3 reasons (referring to non GFCI/non-AFCI beakers since nobody has a main breaker with GFCI or AFCI functionality and even if they did it still wouldnt matter)-

overload
ground fault short circuit (current leaking outside the circuit and causing a short to a grounded/bonded object which trips the breaker because of the neutral to ground bond in the main service panel)
short circuit (ungrounded/hot conductor arcing to another ungrounded conductor or ungrounded conductor arcing to a grounded/neutral conductor)

so since youve inferred that a breaker should care about an open neutral, youre now claiming that an open neutral (regardless of a ground rod) would cause one of the above conditions. totally false.... but please explain your logic here.... im all ears

PCustoms · May 9, 2026

When a lineman wires a house....

wyliesdiesels · May 9, 2026

PCustoms said:
When a lineman wires a house....

a lineman applying grid fundamentals to building electrical...

PCustoms · May 9, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
a lineman applying grid fundamentals to building electrical...

I can figure out how to safely wire my house/shop.

I sure as hell wouldn't try to figure out how to electrify the neighborhood. It's a little different concept...

Codyboy · May 9, 2026

wyliesdiesels said:
what? another statement and logic flow that makes no sense whatsoever.

breakers cant detect open neutrals regardless of ground rods being involved. how does your statement make any sense at all? are you claiming that a circuit with an open neutral can be detected by a breaker and thus the breaker will trip?

again, what kind of logic are you even trying to convey here?

Not to mention an open neutral on the service drop would be on the line side of the main breaker. breakers dont care about what is going on on the line side of said breaker. So now youre inferring that a main breaker trips because of faults on the line side. again your statement makes no sense whatsoever and your claims defy basic electrical101.

but lets delve into your BS claims with some facts.

Would a breaker care about an open neutral? why or why not?

breakers trip for 1 or more of 3 reasons (referring to non GFCI/non-AFCI beakers since nobody has a main breaker with GFCI or AFCI functionality and even if they did it still wouldnt matter)-

overload

ground fault short circuit (current leaking outside the circuit and causing a short to a grounded/bonded object which trips the breaker because of the neutral to ground bond in the main service panel)

short circuit (ungrounded/hot conductor arcing to another ungrounded conductor or ungrounded conductor arcing to a grounded/neutral conductor)

so since youve inferred that a breaker should care about an open neutral, youre now claiming that an open neutral (regardless of a ground rod) would cause one of the above conditions. totally false.... but please explain your logic here.... im all ears

Not saying that a breaker can see that. Not at all.
I'm saying a ground rod alone is not enough to trip a breaker and therefore a ground rod alone CAN NOT carry the load a neutral would normally carry and will not be at zero potential to earth. Yes right in that little small area the ground rod is in, sure. But the farther you move away from the ground rod the potential increases.
In other words the earth is not a good conductor.

I was using the tripping of a breaker as a reference to show a ground rod doesn't have the impedance to trip a breaker.

All of this is in reference to you saying the panel is at the same potential as the earth when there is an open neutral. Post #24

Thats true in a system thats intact.

But with an open neutral there will be current flowing into the ground via the ground rod. So now it is no longer at the same potential as earth and will try to pass the neutral current through the earth back to the source.

Now when you touch the panel , you are also creating another path to earth. The earth at the ground rod and the earth where you are standing will not be at the same potential.

Sub panel questions-New thread as to not hijack existing thread

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