Hi got a call from a family member that their whole house air conditioning unit lost it's charge and they called their HVAC company they have used for years to look it over. The system has almost all the charge of R22 gone. They said R22 is no longer used as it has been banned as he was told. So he asked if the replacement R410A could be used with modification to the system they said no. I looked up this option and see where several companies successfully adapt the system with a new condenser and evaporator and schrader valve,. Buy doing this thousands are saved. Understand lesser cooling capacity but doable. Any input on this issue?? Thanks.
Whole house Air conditioning AC unit issues.
- Thread starter Orca
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I think there are some confused facts reported/understood. R-22 is still available.....not cheap but it's not too far off from 410A or 32. You can find these costs online from many sites.
New systems can't be R22-based and, IIRC, just repairs allowed.. (or 410A.....maybe these can be installed but no more mfg of them. )
I suggest someone come out and do a leak test to understand what the repair cost is and consider that with the system age/remaining life.
Get a few estimates for a new system. Have the system size confirmed with your heating and cooling loads.
Check rebates in your area with the state and/or POCO.
The HVAC guys will chime in with much more details.
New systems can't be R22-based and, IIRC, just repairs allowed.. (or 410A.....maybe these can be installed but no more mfg of them. )
I suggest someone come out and do a leak test to understand what the repair cost is and consider that with the system age/remaining life.
Get a few estimates for a new system. Have the system size confirmed with your heating and cooling loads.
Check rebates in your area with the state and/or POCO.
The HVAC guys will chime in with much more details.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
Edit: Link seems suspicious. Removed.
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signcrafter
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Those are some really good prices, r134a is 135 dollars with free shipping from what I can tell. Napa is 350
R22 Refrigerant 30 lb Virgin
R22 refrigerant (virgin/new) supplied in a 30 lb cylinder for use only in equipment specifically designed for R22. Verify system compatibility before purchase. Handling, sale, and use may be regulated; buyer is responsible for complying with all applicable federal/state/local requirements...tankgasdepot.shop
Ohmthis
Well-known member
X2 Here.
There are substitutes for R22, but quite a bit of work is required for this. The equipment needs to be rated for the pressures. The oil needs to be removed, the metering device changed for the new refrigerant, and then some. There is a loss of capacity as well. These are not drop in refrigerants, meaning they cannot be mixed with R22.
The labor involved is not worth a very temporary fix. I understand trying to keep equipment as long as possible. You are two generations away from the new/modern used refrigerants and equipment. I just installed a new heat pump/air handler (older R22) and the owner reported cutting his electric bill almost in half.
R22 is still available. You just can not buy new equipment that uses it. In the USA newly manufactured R22 is outlawed, but recycled is still available. Techs recover R22, send it away to recycling companies and they clean and purify it, then sell it back to wholesalers.
There are replacements for R22. MO-99(R438A) is one, R427 is another. Any decent HVAC company should have it on hand. The big problem is so many HVAC companies are pushing hard to replace your old equipment and don't want to repair. They want to make money on the change out and move on.
You can not run R410 in R22 equipment.
I did HVAC service for 12 years and then was outside sales for a supply house for another 10 years. My AC for my garage was flat a couple years ago. I found the leak, repaired it and charged it with MO99. I am in no hurry to get rid of my R22 units. My house has one too.
That ships from overseas, I would assume China. I question the legality of bringing in virgin R22.R22 Refrigerant 30 lb Virgin
R22 refrigerant (virgin/new) supplied in a 30 lb cylinder for use only in equipment specifically designed for R22. Verify system compatibility before purchase. Handling, sale, and use may be regulated; buyer is responsible for complying with all applicable federal/state/local requirements...
It’s totally illegal, virgin or otherwise.
I buy it from here, comes from TX.
abilityrefrigerants.com
R-22 REFRIGERANT 30 LBS
R22 30 lbs. of refrigerant is contained in this order. Empty Tare weight is 5 lbs. The box weighs 1 lb. We only ship to the United States except Hawaii and Alaska. Shipping is free. 100% VIRGIN FACTORY SEALED GUARANTEED PRODUCT QUALITY Ability Refrigerant stocks a large store of R22, R410A...
abilityrefrigerants.com
danski0224
Well-known member
R22 equipment was phased out around ~2010 and the loophole for "dry" condensers was closed shortly afterwards.
So, we are talking about equipment that's easily 20 years old.
I would strongly suggest making an effort to find the leak. It could be something easy like a loose Schrader core or something much worse like rusty sheet ends on the evaporator making tens of holes in the copper tubing.
If you have to pay someone to do this, it will get expensive quickly. That's good money thrown after bad money, trying to salvage a heap of junk.
By far, the majority of residential HVAC "techs" and companies have absolutely zero interest in fixing your stuff. There's no money in it, compared to installing new stuff.
Yes, there are the obvious catch all tropes of ****** companies out to screw you. That's frequently brought out here by the peanut gallery.
But the other side is that after an expensive repair fails, then that customer thinks they were ripped off when the refrigerant leaks out a few days/weeks/months later.
Absolutely no one hears the words "this is likely a temporary repair" when shelling out almost or even into 4 figures for a gas and go.
I had this exact scenario play out last year. Charged it up (was not terribly low), was working awesome (customer witnessed it) but then it dumped the charge a couple of days later. Don't know what happened, was not called back.
Would not recommend effing with it much unless you can do it yourself.
I would bet that the evaporator is trash.
I have had ~30% success rate with a stop leak product that is recommended by compressor manufacturers. You don't know until you try, though. Definitely a no guarantee and not inexpensive hail mary.
I was looking for the catch. Couldn't find it. Where did it state overseas?
Snapped-off
Well-known member
Their website states most items ship out of Texas. I didn't see anything specific for that jug. These random sites probably all sell the same ****.
It obviously isn't made here though.
kaymccampbell
Well-known member
You'll need a new, and much bigger filter-dryer. You'll probably need to clean the orifice in the evaporator. You'll need to leak test the system. You'll need lubricant. Odds are the compressor is getting ready to take a dump. And you'll own this whole house forever. Doorknob sticks, anything, and it's, But you did the AC once and then the whole house broke. My advice, stand far away, make your recommendations, and watch the shitshow.
Hi thanks for all the replies. He had his for ever HVAC company come out to check it out. They installed the entire AC and furnace system in 2004. AC unit is a Lennox HC-29 unit. Been serviced every year since. Had motor capacitors changed in the past. Service tech took a photo of his gauges he used to diagnosis the problem. Showed very low charge on gauge. I just happened to stop by and stayed for the conversation. I asked if the tech checked for a leak and where? He said no and called their sales Dept. rep who came over and worked up a quote for a new entire system. Said heat exchanger in the furnace probably is rusting away . Getting data on furnace tomorrow. Said the stamped steel heat exchanger in there rusts because moisture gathers on the bottom of the spot welded pieces. No longer available and they now use a mono tube design in steel that will not fit where the pressed steel one is. And said R22 freon is no longer available. So you can understand his situation. They hit him with a $21,000.00 quote for a whole new setup. Think he needs another company come and see where the leak is if there is one then proceed. Thanks for the replies.
danski0224
Well-known member
Could be BS.
Checking would be an extra diagnostic step and therefore extra money and customer approval.
This *****. ****** approach.
Lies, without proof. "Probably" is a guess.
Combustion analysis is the only way to confirm a bad heat exchanger, short of painfully obvious issues.
***** to continue reading stories of ****** HVAC companies.
Dagny
Well-known member
Something is not right with that 22 price last can I bought was 1200.00 dollars.
I have said it before you need to find a smaller HVAC business. It sure sounds like our business has been infiltrated by criminals.
I have said it before you need to find a smaller HVAC business. It sure sounds like our business has been infiltrated by criminals.
I looked again, I may have misunderstood the ad.
That was a little bit of a lie!
I would be tempted to find out who owns the company. Probably not the same people as twenty years ago.
BurtEggley
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New R22 systems can no longer be sold. New virgin R22 can no longer be sold. Old stock and recycled R22 can be sold, but it cannot go into a new system. It can only be used in existing R22 systems and it is reasonably expensive. That said, the first thing that has to happen is someone with legitimate credentials has to check system pressure. If the R22 is gone then nitrogen can be used to find the leak. If a line or piece of tin wore a hole in a line, it might be repairable by brazing it, then the system can be evacuated and R22 added to recharge it. The question is why it failed, if it did. R22 systems are going on 20 - 30 years old minimum. If the repair costs the owner $,3000 to $4,000 because a new compressor or coil is needed, then it is questionable whether it is worth it financially. It could be a leaking line, leaking indoor coil, or the dog has been peeing on the condenser coils so they corroded away. I am also guessing that there are some 45 year old systems with failed old flex lines that are no longer available. Just the difference of SEER and efficiency from an old 6 or 8 SEER system to a modern efficiency will easily pay for itself. Also, how much leakage is there in the old ducting? All these things have to be considered.
danski0224
Well-known member
20-30% minimum.
Almost no one will pay to fix it though.
Aeroseal is a method to seal existing and installed ductwork, but simply sealing an existing residential system is a bad approach unless the system is evaluated and deemed to be properly sized.
It was common in my area and experience for companies to intentionally undersize return ductwork.
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larry4406
Well-known member
Why would someone intentionally undersize return ductwork? Cheapen the bid?
danski0224
Well-known member
Yes.
bwringer
Well-known member
A real actual diagnosis would cost real actual money, and 99% of customers aren't interested.
That said, the instant referral to sales without the least attempt to even set eyes on the parts that are "probably" bad is ridiculous. The minimum they could do is show the customer the evidence. There's a difference between spending half an hour popping out a few screws and looking for corrosion and obvious leaks, and wasting hours doing a pressure test and a detailed diagnosis and estimate that the customer will never sign.
As stated, spending a few thousand bucks to limp this ancient system along a little further would be a false economy, throwing good money after bad. Spending a few hundred for a capacitor or relay or whatever might make sense, but there just ain't no such thing as a cheap repair when the refrigerant has departed.
It's also irresponsible; patch the leak, pump it up, and you're only limping along until the next leak, which could be tomorrow, could be a year or two later, and dumping R22 into the air we all breathe.
Plus, the new equipement is dramatically more efficient. We thought our elderly heat pump system was pretty efficient, but the new system was astonishing; our overall electricity usage dropped by nearly half.
That said, the instant referral to sales without the least attempt to even set eyes on the parts that are "probably" bad is ridiculous. The minimum they could do is show the customer the evidence. There's a difference between spending half an hour popping out a few screws and looking for corrosion and obvious leaks, and wasting hours doing a pressure test and a detailed diagnosis and estimate that the customer will never sign.
As stated, spending a few thousand bucks to limp this ancient system along a little further would be a false economy, throwing good money after bad. Spending a few hundred for a capacitor or relay or whatever might make sense, but there just ain't no such thing as a cheap repair when the refrigerant has departed.
It's also irresponsible; patch the leak, pump it up, and you're only limping along until the next leak, which could be tomorrow, could be a year or two later, and dumping R22 into the air we all breathe.
Plus, the new equipement is dramatically more efficient. We thought our elderly heat pump system was pretty efficient, but the new system was astonishing; our overall electricity usage dropped by nearly half.
danski0224
Well-known member
Quoted for truth.
That’s pretty sensible of customers, though. $500 to produce a $5000 repair estimate on a system that will break again is good money after bad, when replacement is twice that. Lots of people here are coming from a commercial or industrial background, where spending money to fix things makes sense, because the cost of replacing it is much higher. (And there are downtime costs, so fixing something so it works long enough to get replaced can make sense, too.)
danski0224
Well-known member
I just condemned a system.
Cost less than $500. Took less than 30 minutes to do. Showed customer why it's broke.
Repair is not economically viable.
Your $10k replacement guess is low.
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fitter30
Well-known member
Lines can be reused but most will want to sell you a line set unless the lines are buried in a wall. They flush the lines with a solvent. Difference in refrigerate is the oil for the compressor. R22 uses mineral R410a uses POE. Furnace especially if its gas should be considered. The new ac with have a evaporator in a matching cabinet and the air.flow through the coil is matched to the furnace. Brand of equipment and te efficiency (seer) as more to do with the contractor than the brand. Higher seer the sharper the service person has to be and with VRF variable refrigerate flow systems might need a lap top with the correct program to trouble service. Have you been happy With the size of the equipment? Check with your electric company web site for rebates and a energy audit that includes a blower door test ( you tube as info on them).
Jeepster04
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R22 Refrigerant 30 lb Virgin
R22 refrigerant (virgin/new) supplied in a 30 lb cylinder for use only in equipment specifically designed for R22. Verify system compatibility before purchase. Handling, sale, and use may be regulated; buyer is responsible for complying with all applicable federal/state/local requirements...
Have you bought anything from there? R134a just jumped up to $13 a can at Walmart and I need several cans. I've been saving my 30lb jug for a very rainy day... If I can buy another one, that would be great.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
I have not. I have accounts with some local supply houses through work.
There's probably some more reputable sites you could pick up some 134 from online though. Many places I've seen just require you to check a box saying you're certified to buy it.
Jeepster04
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I added it to my cart and saw this... Scurred me away.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
I just did another search, and all the prices are 2 - 3x what that original one I posted is. So that one is most likely not legit.I added it to my cart and saw this... Scurred me away.
All the $100 listings were at the top the other day.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"The production and importation of R22 are prohibited in the U.S., but existing stocks of reclaimed or recovered refrigerant remain legal for servicing current equipment. However, only certified technicians and distributors can legally handle, sell, or purchase it."
"As of January 1, 2020, the production and importation of new R-22 (HCFC-22) into the United States is banned. Only recycled or reclaimed R-22, which is recovered within the US and cleaned to AHRI-700 standards, is permitted for servicing existing equipment. Importing used or cleaned R-22 from foreign countries is prohibited"
After reading this I would say it is definitely not legal to import a drop of used, recovered , virgin or non virgin R22 into the USA....not that many are not doing it.
Yep! Follow the money!
Troubleshooting and repair of older components is difficult and time consuming, two things most companies do not want to be associated with. Just like pretty much everything else these days - "It's old and not worth fixing - just buy new!" And it's plain for anyone with eyes to see how well THAT method is panning out.
OP, I can reiterate what others have said. Get a reputable company to come out and leak check the system. Repair and keep it if you can. A/C's are alot like cars. I'd rather have a 1964 El Camino, strip it down and totally restore it rather than spend that money on a new vehicle. Hands down, any day of the week.